The ISFJ and conflict...

Originally Posted by Sevchenko

While it is a regrettable reaction to emotion in a crisis; anyone with a dominating T function (such as myself) will be very confused and frustrated by emotion when in conflict. I will sound blunt here, but i do wish to be honest: emotion within a conflict seems counter productive to us. Our T functions take over and, for me, will suppress my Fe and my mind races with a Ti-Ne axis hell bent on finding an answer. It will, rightfully so, seems cold to Fs of any kind. I only say this to help you understand us a little bit better. We (generally speaking of course) do not mean anything personal by not addressing your emotional state, and it certainly doesn't mean that we don't care about it. From an INTP perspective, i see your emotion and think about what is causing it, not the emotion itself. I want to attack it at it's root.

perhaps if he explained his reaction like this and not the way he did, or perhaps attempted to understand my emotional reaction as one that is natural to me and in no way used as a punishment for him... we wouldnt still be fighting.

Originally Posted by Sevchenko

While it is a regrettable reaction to emotion in a crisis; anyone with a dominating T function (such as myself) will be very confused and frustrated by emotion when in conflict. I will sound blunt here, but i do wish to be honest: emotion within a conflict seems counter productive to us. Our T functions take over and, for me, will suppress my Fe and my mind races with a Ti-Ne axis hell bent on finding an answer. It will, rightfully so, seems cold to Fs of any kind. I only say this to help you understand us a little bit better. We (generally speaking of course) do not mean anything personal by not addressing your emotional state, and it certainly doesn't mean that we don't care about it. From an INTP perspective, i see your emotion and think about what is causing it, not the emotion itself. I want to attack it at it's root.

I speak for myself, but I think it's true for other ISFJs as well. When we get emotional, it blinds us to everything else. I definitely have this trouble with my temper. Your natural reaction as an NT is to reason with us, but speaking from experience, don't. You would have a much easier (and happier) time talking to a brick wall. Wait till the ISFJ has calmed down and is willing to reason first, then attack the situation at its root. If not, you're aggravating the problem, because the ISFJ will see it as an attack on them, and not the situation.

Originally Posted by xobrittzy

Hi. I'm new to the site but I'm an ISFJ and I deal with conflict by talking to others. I tend to bottle it up at times but generally, I like to discuss my feelings and talk to them privately about what's bothering me. I abhor drama though.

Me too I hate conflict and try to avoid it as much as possible.I also bottle things up to avoid causing issues.I am having problems now with my ISTP SO.I have tried to discuss my feelings but have tended to gloss over details that may cause offence.I realise that my problem is more to do with myself than him.I'm trying to adjust to not being in an abusive relationship any more,and feeling lost and ignored when he doesn't pay me enough attention.He isn't a big communicator,or socialiser nor a touchy feely kind of person,and I understand that he needs his space.But my ex husband gave me lots of attention even though it was often forced and he used sex as a means to manipulate me.Now when my SO seems to ignore me I wonder if I have done something wrong to make him feel that way.He has tried to assure me that's not the case,that he is just moody and set in his ways,but I still feel like I am not an important person in his life.

I don't deal with on the spot conflict very well,as I tend to get angry and say things that I will regret later.I have been involved in a few arguments that happened in the spur of the moment,and I get hostile and react inappropriately without thinking things through.I haven't been in this situation with my SO yet though.My ex and our children yes,and it isn't a very nice feeling at all.

[QUOTE=teddy564339;2010556] I think very often ISFJs tend to attach a lot of things to ourselves as people...if someone attacks a belief we have, an opinion we have, an idea we have, a thought we have, a solution we have, a problem we have...a lot of times we feel like the other person is attacking us a person. I think most of the time, when we find out what they think, they didn't think that at all...they're just trying to solve a problem. However, they assume that we know they're not attacking us, and we assume they are attacking us and that they know it. This leads us to feeling hurt and angry, and they don't know why....so we come off as crazy to them, even though the whole thing is one big miscommunication.

Yes I can understand this very well,as I feel that my SO is ignoring me when he clearly isn't.I come across to him as being very paranoid and irrational,which I probably am being.His moodiness and need for space often come across to me as being distant,and uncaring,but he really doesn't mean that at all.When I try to talk to him about it I don't go into all the details just gloss over things to avoid and argument and not cause offence.

It's down to our inferior Ne, I think....we tend to try to figure things out without enough information, and we often make false assumptions.

Yes,yes and yes........exactly how I am

So I think one of the things that helps the most is only to feel strongly about something if you have evidence for it. Keep yourself calm and don't let your imagination run away from you. Don't let a natural tendency to feel anger or hurt dictate your actions. Try to look at a situation based only on the facts instead of what it seems like is happening in your head. But if you rely on what you know is true, it lets you use your Si to the best of your ability and make good decisions.

Easier said than done......















I think this is definitely a part of this.One big thing with ISFJs is for us to feel loved, appreciated, and valued. When someone else is trying to solve problems in our lives, even though that may be their way of helping us or showing that they love us, it often feels like an attack because it feels like someone is trying to "fix" us, or show us that there's something wrong with us. I think we want to know that we have something to offer other people, and we want to be able to feel good about our thoughts and opinions. So we when see a lot of modifications to what we think, we take it as someone seeing there's something wrong with us, and it feels like a rejection of who we are. We feel like we're being proven wrong and that our input isn't being valued.

Yes I feel that this statement is so true.......

So I think it's helpful to avoid making a situation into a "right vs. wrong". Instead of being a competition, it's better if it's a collaboration. Affirmation is really important to ISFJs...knowing that what we think has positive merit, and that there's something good about what we think. I think if we're able to start off with that positive, it makes us relax and feel at ease. Then, we're a lot more likely to analyze where we're wrong, and be a lot more comfortable changing our minds. We won't feel threatened...we won't feel like someone is trying to prove us wrong, and it won't lower our confidence. We'll know they're on our side, not against us.

Yes I need to try and do exactly this.....just be positive about my relationship and know that my SO loves me and wants to be with me,but has other commitments in his life besides me.That I am not inferior and just there to fill in the gaps.Again easier said than done











The thing with ISFJs is....our dominant Si makes us want to prefer to keep things the same. We crave consistency, and making changes is usually very tough for us. What we really want is stability and reassurance, and then we want to be able to go at something full steam, going very deep and latching on. We want to know something is rooted deeply in place, and then we're going to put 100% of our effort into it.


Yes I have lots of problems adapting to change,as mentioned earlier I am not in an abusive relationship any
more.I find it hard to believe that I am now with a man that loves me and is who is not going to control,dominate and manipulate me to get what he wants.Here is a man who lets me be myself,understands and accepts me for who I am,supports me in what I want to do,and allows me freedom that I never had before.Why am I worried?????

But if we're afraid that something is going to be constantly changing, we're not going to feel security with it, and we'll become extremely unsettled.


Again true,I'm insecure in myself and I am transferring that insecurity on to my SO.He doesn't love me,he doesn't want to be with me ect.....The more I think that the more true it will become.

So often, when we're faced with a situation that's not optimal, we often prefer to keep it that way instead of dealing with the change. Making the change is often more stressful and gives us more anxiety than sticking with the known...even if we're not completely happy with the known.

I find it extremely hard to cope with change.I was separated for 10 years before getting a divorce.I just couldn't let go of my marriage even though I knew it was over.I was still dependent on my husband even though we weren't living together,and I am still living in the ex marital home.I just can't bring myself to leave the home that I have lived in for the past 18 years of my life.

I'd rather avoid conflicts whenever I can. Let's face it though, we all have to deal with it eventually.

Me too, we need conflict to resolve problems in our life,but I don't like it when it becomes messy and people end up getting hurt.If I could wave a magic wand and say conflict be gone,it would be so much easier to deal with.

Originally Posted by Mendi the ISFJ

chances are shes aware of the problem but realizes she cannot handle the problem or the process required to solve it and beats herself up over it. Then you go and verbally remind her of the problem and she is reminded she is inadequate and useless. You likely raise your voice over it and she is mad at herself and you for blaming her for the problem (despite whether or not you intended to). I dont like conflict and i had one today with my husband. He not only doesnt care if im hurt or sad about something he literally said "why do you have to cry now, cant we discuss this without you crying?" and the answer is no... we cant, because when he talks and especially when he says things like that it reminds me of how little he cares and the lack of empathy seems almost sociopathic. ISFJs need time alone to reflect... so you seeing her as fleeing from the problem is really her trying to survive it and run the situation over and over in her mind to find a solution and relieve the pressure of the emotion that is consuming her. This emotion has to come out and her only other option would to unfairly attack you with it. Be happy that she loves you.

I don't just verbally remind her, I seem to physically remind her. I have trouble sitting still and not taking action so I'm always up fixing things. She doesn't have that kind of energy or resolve, despite being several years younger than I and not having a full time job like I do. I'm always up cooking, cleaning, organizing, surfing the web for new and interesting things. She needs time to accomplish all these things and I don't. My strengths are her weaknesses and visa versa, but she doesn't see it like this. I see her strengths not as my weaknesses, but as shared assets between us. She seems to see my strengths not as a resource, but as a constant reminder of her shortcomings. We are not each other, but instead of focusing on who we are individually, she seems to be constantly focused on who we're not. How do I get her to see me as who I am instead of who I'm not or as a constant reminder of who she's not?

I do try to empathize with her when she breaks down, since I know where she's coming from (having been on this site for a while now) even though it's completely foreign to me. I understand the whole concept of us NTs seeming a bit sociopathic at time, frankly I have to catch myself and remind me to not be so ASPD even if it does come natural to me and makes life so much easier. It's just kinda hard knowing that I'm working on not being a sociopath when I can't see her working on not being so hypersensitive.

Originally Posted by teddy564339

I think one of the things that helps the most (particularly when dealing with NTs) is to not take things personally. I think very often ISFJs tend to attach a lot of things to ourselves as people...if someone attacks a belief we have, an opinion we have, an idea we have, a thought we have, a solution we have, a problem we have...a lot of times we feel like the other person is attacking us a person. I think most of the time, when we find out what they think, they didn't think that at all...they're just trying to solve a problem. However, they assume that we know they're not attacking us, and we assume they are attacking us and that they know it. This leads us to feeling hurt and angry, and they don't know why....so we come off as crazy to them, even though the whole thing is one big miscommunication.

It's down to our inferior Ne, I think....we tend to try to figure things out without enough information, and we often make false assumptions.


So I think one of the things that helps the most is only to feel strongly about something if you have evidence for it. Keep yourself calm and don't let your imagination run away from you. Don't let a natural tendency to feel anger or hurt dictate your actions. Try to look at a situation based only on the facts instead of what it seems like is happening in your head. But if you rely on what you know is true, it lets you use your Si to the best of your ability and make good decisions.







Well, I think this depends upon the exact situation. I don't think it's impossible for an ISFJ to have strong personal feelings for an NT...we don't just automatically try to help them just for the sake of helping them. We do feel strong emotions for certain people, and that person might be an NT. There are differences between ISFJs and INTPs for sure, but that doesn't mean they can't feel strongly for one another, even thought this may be the case in certain situations.









I think this is definitely a part of this. One big thing with ISFJs is for us to feel loved, appreciated, and valued. When someone else is trying to solve problems in our lives, even though that may be their way of helping us or showing that they love us, it often feels like an attack because it feels like someone is trying to "fix" us, or show us that there's something wrong with us. I think we want to know that we have something to offer other people, and we want to be able to feel good about our thoughts and opinions. So we when see a lot of modifications to what we think, we take it as someone seeing there's something wrong with us, and it feels like a rejection of who we are. We feel like we're being proven wrong and that our input isn't being valued.


So I think it's helpful to avoid making a situation into a "right vs. wrong". Instead of being a competition, it's better if it's a collaboration. Affirmation is really important to ISFJs...knowing that what we think has positive merit, and that there's something good about what we think. I think if we're able to start off with that positive, it makes us relax and feel at ease. Then, we're a lot more likely to analyze where we're wrong, and be a lot more comfortable changing our minds. We won't feel threatened...we won't feel like someone is trying to prove us wrong, and it won't lower our confidence. We'll know they're on our side, not against us.


It's a lot of these little details that I think NTs pass over because they often have no personal use for them. All they see is a problem to be solved, and I don't think they usually feel a lot of the same emotional turmoil that an ISFJ does. Some of this is Si related, which I'll get to in a bit.








I've seen this pop up a lot in other threads involving INTPs. It's really an Ne vs. Si situation, with some T and F mixed in.


The thing with ISFJs is....our dominant Si makes us want to prefer to keep things the same. We crave consistency, and making changes is usually very tough for us. What we really want is stability and reassurance, and then we want to be able to go at something full steam, going very deep and latching on. We want to know something is rooted deeply in place, and then we're going to put 100% of our effort into it.


But if we're afraid that something is going to be constantly changing, we're not going to feel security with it, and we'll become extremely unsettled.


So often, when we're faced with a situation that's not optimal, we often prefer to keep it that way instead of dealing with the change. Making the chance is often more stressful and gives us more anxiety than sticking with the known...even if we're not completely happy with the known.

Now, whether or not this is ok depends on the situation. Certainly there are times when things get so bad that it really is necessary to make a change. And there are times when we really do need to be pushed into making that change.


But I think often we prefer to just keep on pushing along with something. Now, we often may want to vent and blow off steam about a situation because it's not perfect, and some of these outbursts may be pretty strong. But, I think once we get it out of our system, we feel a lot better, and then we have no problem continuing to deal with the issue.


But I know to NTs, especially NTPs, they see this as insanity, because when they see our vent sessions, they see us as being unhappy, and they see us as complaining about something and not ever doing anything to change it. And this strikes them as very stupid...they basically see it as whining about a problem but never making any effort to improve the situation.

As I said, in some cases this is true...there are times when we really do need to find a way to make our situation better.


But I think one big problem is...it's very stressful for us to try things that don't work. I think P types, especially NPs, like trying out a bunch of things, because it's so easy for them to move on. If something doesn't work, they just bounce on to the next thing. But for ISJs, it's so stressful for us to put so much work into making a change, only to find out it was a waste of time and energy. This sticks with us, and we wish so badly we hadn't tried making the change at all. This is so much worse than just sticking with the non-optimal original situation.

I think this link really explains this Si/Ne dynamic in ISFJs very well:

Recognizing the Inferior Function in ISFJ



So as I mentioned before, I think it's helpful if you focus on the positive before pointing out the problems. ISFJs can make changes, but we have to do it slowly and one step at a time. You have to be patient with us...a lot of times we have to reach the conclusion ourselves, we can't have it pushed on us. If we do, then we're going to get hurt, lash out, and stubbornly block out everything else you say. But if you show us support and gently guide us along, we'll probably see the truth and go at it wholeheartedly.




But it's really hard for me to talk about all of this without a concrete example. These are just my general thoughts.








Kind of like I mentioned to Sevchenko, I think she may be taking your problem solving strategy as an attack on her and what she's comfortable with. It might help that instead of quickly trying to tackle the issue, to ask her what she thinks, and just listen without offering any input. Keep on listening and just asking her what she thinks...guide her along and help her understand what she truly thinks about the situation. Let her get all of her thoughts and opinions out without interrupting them, or finding problems in them.

Also, ask her what she thinks would be a solution. Let her think about some things that would help.

Then, after she's done all of this...try to find the things you agree with and can support her on first. Show that you value her input and find the things that you think are helpful. If she feels that support, she'll know you're not out to get her, or not out to tear her down...again, it's not about competition, but collaboration. It'll let her know you're not trying to attack her, but trying to help her.


Then, hopefully she'll be more relaxed, and you can ease into offering your own input and offering your own solutions. But you may have to go back and let her know and remind her that this doesn't mean that you're trying to put her down or attack her...you may have to constantly show that you support her.


I know NTs really hate repetition, especially of emotional things. They often feel that certain things should be obvious without them having to be said. But I think there are lot of things that ISFJs have to constantly have repeated to us to make us feel content and safe....again, this boils down to Si. We want to know that things havent' changed and that they're ok.


So I think it's this kind of emotional support for her that may be missing in the situation. Even in your post I didn't see much of that...you seem to want to be jumping directly ahead to tackling the problem while skipping all of the support she might need. And that just leads to the situation exploding rather than taking the first step towards a solution.

So I think at the core of the problem is this. Knowing what I know about MBTI I completely understand where she's coming from. As an ISFJ she is very co-dependent, to me seemingly bordering on dependent personality disorder, as an ENTP I am extremely independent. She has a fundamental need for a great deal of emotional support and stability, whereas I have a fundamental need for autonomy. She needs me to be constantly there for her, which I am, but I need to have a great deal of time and space to myself, which I don't get because I'm constantly dropping everything for her. Her needs and my needs both seem to monopolize all of my time so I can only really accomplish 1 of them. I trying really hard not to resent her for this, but sometimes it's extremely difficult.

I have tried explaining our fundamental differences, but she doesn't seem to grasp the concept, or even want to grasp the concept, that people could be so vastly different and kinda blows me off. It's like she's stuck on her own Pygmalion project and the thought that I can be so vastly different and not cooperating with that project is a personal affront to her. The only way she seems to ever listen to me is when I blow up on her, which in the heat of the moment make it very difficult to speak on anything intellectually.

Like you said she's avoiding making improvements on our quality of life because that would mean *gasp* change... Funny thing is she doesn't handle change very well, but she's okay with spur of the moment decisions. The lack of change is driving me absolutely insane though. I know that it wouldn't be so bad if we didn't live on the far side of the city from all her friends and family which means I'm her primary resource for emotional support, which frankly I kinda suck at. Any idea how to let her know that she's monopolizing my time, which gives me no time to myself or my personal endeavors and stresses me the heck out, without making it sound like I blame her for being the primary stressor in my life? How do I convince her that by letting me be me (as massively chaotic as that may seem), instead of focusing all of her energy on trying to keep everything from spinning out of control, it would reduce almost all that conflict, which she abhors, down to virtually nil?

Originally Posted by MCRTS

I speak for myself, but I think it's true for other ISFJs as well. When we get emotional, it blinds us to everything else. I definitely have this trouble with my temper. Your natural reaction as an NT is to reason with us, but speaking from experience, don't. You would have a much easier (and happier) time talking to a brick wall. Wait till the ISFJ has calmed down and is willing to reason first, then attack the situation at its root. If not, you're aggravating the problem, because the ISFJ will see it as an attack on them, and not the situation.

I like talking to brick walls, they seem to give me more intelligible responses than 1/2 of the general populace.

@affezwilling

she seems to be constantly focused on who we're not. How do I get her to see me as who I am instead of who I'm not or as a constant reminder of who she's not?

we can get very negative and its hard to just pop out of it, it sounds like she needs reassurance and appreciation to be reminded that shes awesome and you love and want her out of everyone else out there. She needs someone to talk to that can make her see that the bad things that happen are not her fault. No offense but this may not be you.

I suggest that you have a conversation with her in which you are completely submissive. Yes i know this can be difficult, but focus on asking her questions and giving her time to think and answer. We dont process information in the same way and we need time to reflect so demanding (or seemingly demanding answers right now) can just stress us and make us more emotional. Do this when shes calm, when you are calm and remind her that you appreciate her. I know this sounds sappy but i believe it will help.

Originally Posted by Mendi the ISFJ

ISFJs need time alone to reflect... so you seeing her as fleeing from the problem is really her trying to survive it and run the situation over and over in her mind to find a solution and relieve the pressure of the emotion that is consuming her. This emotion has to come out and her only other option would to unfairly attack you with it. Be happy that she loves you.

This happened to me just last night with my mother in law, an ENFJ. We had a fight, the worst fight I have ever been in. I had enough self awareness to know that right then wasn't the time to 'listen' to what she had to say and I told her that. She refused to listen, and kept up the discussion (it actually descended into full-on screaming match, the only time I have ever shook with anger) despite it being very obvious that nothing productive was going to come of it in that moment. Then I tried to walk away so we could both calm down, but she followed and kept up the lecture (it started because she was lecturing me about how to keep my house). At that point I told her to leave and she still refused. From there it descended into the personal, attacks on character and by the end of it the relationship had dissolved so much that I don't think it can be mended. If she had just accepted that I needed time out and that it could be more productively discussed later when we were both calmer we might have been able to resolve it. Instead, we have a situation where the relationship is over.

Please, if you're in a fight with an ISFJ and it evolves to full-on screaming you need to back off and deal with it later. You will gain nothing by pushing the discussion in the moment and you may end up losing a lot. In my life I have only ever fully cut off one person. I am now about to do that to a second - and all because a fight escalated past where it needed to. Taking time out from a situation does not make somebody weak.

Originally Posted by sts06

This happened to me just last night with my mother in law, an ENFJ. We had a fight, the worst fight I have ever been in. I had enough self awareness to know that right then wasn't the time to 'listen' to what she had to say and I told her that. She refused to listen, and kept up the discussion (it actually descended into full-on screaming match, the only time I have ever shook with anger) despite it being very obvious that nothing productive was going to come of it in that moment. Then I tried to walk away so we could both calm down, but she followed and kept up the lecture (it started because she was lecturing me about how to keep my house). At that point I told her to leave and she still refused. From there it descended into the personal, attacks on character and by the end of it the relationship had dissolved so much that I don't think it can be mended. If she had just accepted that I needed time out and that it could be more productively discussed later when we were both calmer we might have been able to resolve it. Instead, we have a situation where the relationship is over.

Please, if you're in a fight with an ISFJ and it evolves to full-on screaming you need to back off and deal with it later. You will gain nothing by pushing the discussion in the moment and you may end up losing a lot. In my life I have only ever fully cut off one person. I am now about to do that to a second - and all because a fight escalated past where it needed to. Taking time out from a situation does not make somebody weak.

oh sweetie im so sorry... my brother does that and theres no reason to keep fighting... also why would she think she gets to determine how you clean house?? i cant imagine how that would effect me. :(

Originally Posted by Mendi the ISFJ

oh sweetie im so sorry... my brother does that and theres no reason to keep fighting... also why would she think she gets to determine how you clean house?? i cant imagine how that would effect me. :(

Oh she's always been like that to the point that she has even rearranged my parents' pantry because they didn't do it 'right' so that part wasn't so much the problem as I'm just used to it.

Originally Posted by sts06

Oh she's always been like that to the point that she has even rearranged my parents' pantry because they didn't do it 'right' so that part wasn't so much the problem as I'm just used to it.

wow thats horrible, that would drive me crazy.

Originally Posted by Mendi the ISFJ

wow thats horrible, that would drive me crazy.

Well yeah and we've had a few fights in the past about it, but nothing like this one. After I learned about MBTI I realised she has very strong J tendencies and was able to shrug it off better. This time it went beyond that.